PBS NewsHour | Liz Cheney's on the dangers of a 2nd Trump presidency | Season 2023

AMNA NAWAZ: She was the number three Republican in the House of Representatives, voting with former President Donald Trump 90 percent of the time.

But that changed for Liz Cheney after Trump sought to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

She started speaking out against his call to arms and investigating the deadly January 6 Capitol riot.

It cost her, her job in Congress.

Now Liz Cheney is speaking out again, warning of the dangers of a potential second Trump presidency in her new book, "Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning."

Congresswoman Liz Cheney, welcome.

Thanks for joining us.

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Thank you.

Great to be with you, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: There's a lot of news this week that relates directly to a lot of the events and the themes you touch on in the book, for example, former President Trump saying he would be a dictator only on day one of his presidency if reelected.

But this is a memoir and a warning, as you say on the book's cover.

What would another Trump presidency mean for America?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I think that it would really have the potential to unravel the fundamental foundations of our republic.

And I say that fully recognizing that it's a very serious, serious charge to be making.

But if you look at what he tried to do after the last election, he's the only president in our history who has not been willing to make sure that we had a peaceful transfer of power.

He attempted to overturn the election.

He attempted to seize power.

And I think that, if people really want to focus on the danger that he poses, one of them is, he won't abide by the rulings of our courts.

And to have a president, who is charged with ensuring that the laws are faithfully executed, unwilling to enforce the court rulings, unwilling to uphold the rule of law, that is just at the heart of what makes our democracy function.

AMNA NAWAZ: Do you think he would be more dangerous in a second term, because he understands the system better?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I think he surely would be, both because he understands the system, as well as because he would put people around him who are willing to help him do what he failed to do last time.

And I think that is -- that's a very grave threat.

AMNA NAWAZ: You document the role Kevin McCarthy, in particular, played in working to overturn that 2020 election.

He announced this week that he will be leaving Congress at the end of the year, before his term is up.

He's saying that he will serve America in new ways.

Does his departure surprise you?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I suppose not.

I think, though, that the lesson of the book and the stories in the book about Kevin McCarthy, who was then the leader, really focus on the extent to which individuals matter.

And when you have someone who's the leader of the Republican Party in the House who, at every moment when he had the choice to make about, is he going to do the right thing or is he going to do the politically convenient thing, he always chose politics.

He always chose Trump.

And it's dangerous, because each of those decisions, whether it's determining that you're going to vote to object to electoral votes, or then, of course, after January 6 his role and responsibility in helping to bring Donald Trump back, to rehabilitate him when Leader McCarthy went down to Mar-a-Lago, those things all very much set us on the path that has led to where we are today, where Donald Trump is the leader of the Republicans in the presidential primary.

AMNA NAWAZ: Almost three years after the January 6 attack, it's fair to say accountability and the work to hold people accountable is still very much going on.

We have the rioters still being prosecuted, fake electors this week indicted in Nevada,.

Another group of fake electors in Wisconsin settled a lawsuit acknowledging that Mr. Biden did win.

You talk about other people being held accountable.

I wonder, what about members of Congress?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: Yes.

AMNA NAWAZ: Do you believe there should be accountability there, and what does that look like?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I do, certainly.

And if you look at the work of the select committee, of course, we issued subpoenas for several members of Congress.

They all refused to comply with those subpoenas.

I think Jack Smith has got tools that we didn't have in Congress.

And there are a number of members who have a lot of questions that they should be answering, people like Jim Jordan, Kevin McCarthy.

And I think if you look, for example, at someone like Ronny Jackson from Texas, the Select Committee uncovered text messages that showed the Oath Keepers, while they were invading and attacking the Capitol, were communicating about how they could help Ronny Jackson, how they could help to facilitate getting him out.

They suggested he had data that was important.

AMNA NAWAZ: But they were naming him specifically in those messages, right?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: Right.

Right.

And he's the only member of Congress that we are aware of that was being named specifically by the Oath Keepers.

But those are the kinds of questions that really do need to be answered.

AMNA NAWAZ: This week, we also saw Speaker Mike Johnson say that he would release the January 6 security tapes, but blur faces.

Does that kind of thing, in your view, get in the way of accountability?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: First of all, the Department of Justice has those security tapes.

And what we're seeing from Speaker Johnson at this point really seems to be sort of a suggestion that he's released everything, which, of course, he hasn't.

He's only released a small part.

And now he's arguing that somehow there's something in these tapes that will change the facts, that will change what we know happened that day.

My view is, you need to make some provisions here for whatever security arrangements at the Capitol could be affected, but, if Speaker Johnson is going to tell people he's releasing the tapes, he should release the tapes.

And he, of course, hasn't done that.

AMNA NAWAZ: What message do you think it sends when he says, we're going to blur the faces?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I think it tells you that he's lost his way in terms of recognizing what happened that day, in terms of recognizing the very grave constitutional threat that it posed, the threat of violence that it posed, and that he's become very consumed with trying to placate Donald Trump and those who support him.

AMNA NAWAZ: You name some of your former colleagues in the book, in terms of what they were saying privately versus what they were saying publicly.

There's a story you tell about what happens in the Cloakroom, with people signing an objection letter to the election results.

And you name Mark Green as sighing and saying the things, "We do for orange Jesus," referring to then-President Trump.

There's others that you don't name, though.

You talk about one senior Republican congressman who refused to speak out, you say because of political consequences, but he says to you: "Liz, surviving is all that matters."

And I just wonder if you think people, enablers, as you call them, should be held accountable, why not name them in the book?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I think that there were some people who clearly were enablers, and there were others -- the member who talked to me about his concern for security, there were a number of members who did that.

And I think that's a different thing.

I think that I understand that.

We certainly live in a new world, in terms of the risk of political violence.

I say in the book, though, although I understood very much his fear about security, that I thought perhaps he needed to be in another line of work, that, if you come to a point where, as a member of Congress, you're not willing to cast your vote the way you think you should, especially on something as important as impeachment, then you really -- you need to rethink both sort of where we are as a country, but also whether or not you're the right person in that position.

AMNA NAWAZ: You have said that you will do whatever it takes to make sure Mr. Trump is not reelected.

Do you believe that President Biden is the best candidate to beat him, if Mr. Trump is the nominee?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I think it remains to be seen.

I don't think we know yet who the Democrats are going to nominate.

I think that we have to make sure whoever are the candidates on the playing field are the very best ones.

AMNA NAWAZ: You're not sure who the Democrats will nominate?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: Yes.

I think it's not clear yet.

I think, right now, it looks like it's likely to be President Biden, but the Democrats themselves don't seem united behind that.

And I think it's really important.

The single most important thing is that we defeat Donald Trump.

The level of the gravity of these challenges has meant that there are considerations people are making about third parties, for example, that you probably would not have seen four years ago or eight years ago.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, you yourself haven't ruled out running, right?

Do you think you could beat him?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I haven't made any decisions yet about whether or not I'm going to run.

And I think it really will come down to, how do we have the very most effective people on the playing field in order to defeat Donald Trump?

And that may mean that we have to work together to support other candidates and that we need to do so beyond partisanship.

But I will decide that in the next few months.

AMNA NAWAZ: The Cheney name occupies its own space in American history and politics.

You draw the parallels between your father and his experience as vice president being evacuated from the White House, you being evacuated from the Capitol.

You also tell the story about your daughter Grace calling you crying after the January 6 attack.

Do you want your children to continue in this work, the same way you did after your father?

Do they want to?

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: I have five children, and so they're very different people.

But I do think that one of the things that I learned from my parents, and I hope that my husband and I have been able to pass on to our kids, is how important it is to be involved in something bigger than yourself and also how much of an obligation each of us has as Americans not to take for granted the freedoms that -- in which we live, and to make sure we're all doing everything we can to defend those.

So I'm very proud of my children.

And I'm also very committed to making sure that they grow up and they get to live in America where the peaceful transfer of power can be taken for granted once again.

AMNA NAWAZ: Former Congresswoman Liz Cheney, author of the new book "Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning," thank you so much for being here.

FMR.

REP. LIZ CHENEY: Thank you, Amna.

Great to be with you.

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